This paper says there are no adverse effects to the mother, but it does not mention possible adverse effects to the child beyond "birth health" and does not address the recent controversy about a possible link to autism.
dofm [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Why would it need to? There is no medical controversy.
There’s only a weak and now discounted statistical association that was seized upon by two disgraceful anti-science politicians to create a political controversy.
ourmandave [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I can't figure it out. What is the actual reason they knowingly LIED about it?
Some personal grievance against Tylenol brand?
More graft from a competitor?
Appease their conspiracy loving dumbass base?
Destroy the scientific reputation of the US?
Trump is actually that fucking stupid?
All of the above?
eth0up [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Just for the sake of honest balance, with minimal commentary and no opinions:
I am not not asserting any clever marketing here. I am merely citing public information. Noting all the above, I am confident it's perfectly safe for children and fetuses, and if posing any risk at all, applies strictly to full grown adults. No doubts about child safety have been expressed here.
ctoa [3 hidden]5 mins ago
"A lot fatalities due to taking after hangovers" no, that's not how acetaminophen fatalities happen. In fact, the article you cited specifically mentions "there is no scientific evidence that people with AUD (alcohol use disorder) who take the recommended dose of acetaminophen increase their risk of liver damage."
Fatalities happen basically from: product stacking combination medicines people don't realize contain acetaminophen and/or multi-day accumulation exceeding max daily limit over multiple days.
Chronic drinkers have impaired acetaminophen processing so they can't handle otherwise safe doses, but fatalities still typically occur in multi-day accumulation scenarios. Their safe daily max is ~half that of a non drinker.
The effects of one round of acute drinking don't impair the liver in the same way. People are not dropping dead because they took a normal dose of acetaminophen for a hangover. Not that I'm recommending you start doing it, but it is a myth.
redwall_hp [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Fatalities happen basically from: product stacking combination medicines people don't realize contain acetaminophen and/or multi-day accumulation exceeding max daily limit over multiple days.
I find it obnoxious that NyQuil has taken over as the default brand people grab for cough syrup, for that reason. It has acetaminophen, while Robitussin or such have the other active ingredients without that risk.
The typical person doesn't read and understand active ingredients, and it's lucky if they even check dosage instructions.
ctoa [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I absolutely think we should ban acetaminophen in otc combo meds. There was a big drop in hospitalizations when they dropped the max allowed dose in prescription drugs like Vicodin, there's no reason these otc things like NyQuil need to exist at all.
greggsy [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The liver toxicity is well known, and overdose is not uncommon.
lokar [3 hidden]5 mins ago
A better policy fix would be to remove it from multi-drug products. Require it always be the only active ingredient.
mmooss [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> overdose is not uncommon
Anecdotally, I hear about it far more in Internet comments like the parent than elsewhere. How common is it?
estearum [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The first paper shows no evidence of any effect from Tylenol...? But yeah seems like lots of support for the ibuprofen protective effect, interestingly.
eth0up [3 hidden]5 mins ago
If you do start munching on advil; note there are rumors, by medical researchers, case reports, and more, that if you dig beneath the shiny surface to find, do show a lot of compelling data for GI damage, heart risk and other serious side-effects. And depending on how fair one wants to be with 'evidence' -- almost all wording describing NSAIDs as "protective", uses easy-to-miss but distinct qualifiers such as "potential" and other such vague 'maybe'-equivalents that alone have been used to suppress and dismiss many other...potential medicines. Sometimes, conclusive just means inspired. And sometimes ambiguity means certainty, depending on levels of inspiration involved.
Of course, one might pause for a moment to consider just how potential the alluded benefits really are with ibuprofen, and ask why doctors aren't recommending it for mental health, or as a general health product. But that might point to the peculiar fact that there is substantially more evidence suggesting risk over health benefits, and the benefits really depend on what one wants to see. There is a reason it's not marketed as a health product, but with the way it's framed, it should be, nu? I mean, potential benefits sells a lot of snake oil and lowfat yogurt. Why not advil and acetaminophen?
And by similar logic used to dismiss acetaminophen here as a health risk, eg because there's no link with autism/ADHD it's safe; why not apply the same logic to opiates? We could just say opiates do not directly cause, eg , parkinsons, or AIDS, therefore it's safe for babies. Myself, I never correlated acetaminophen with autism/ADHD, but I know it has more side-effects than listen on the bottle.
estearum [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Yeah I work in clinical trials so I'm very comfortable with all the caveats the need to be applied to correlative studies like these.
Which also answers your other question of why doctors don't recommend it: we don't actually know that it does this.
As for the rest of the ramble, you (or I) definitely don't know hardly anything that hasn't been established in clinical trials. Certainly can't just vibes-based assess a label and its completeness. It's really, really hard to know things.
The precise wording as far as safety is: "we have no substantive or high-quality evidence that the drug is unsafe."
eth0up [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Because we couldn't possibly modify
"we have no substantive or high-quality evidence that the drug is unsafe." - (damn all the research showing it is)
--to
"we have no substantive or high-quality evidence that the drug is safe." - (damn all the research suggesting it isn't)
Well, that's as good a green light for an ad campaign as one could ask for. "we don't actually know that it does this." ain't never stopped a motivated pharmaceutical rep before. You have my official endorsement for feeding advil and acetaminophen to all. And protection from dementia is just what America needs. !Win / !Win
Maybe restless leg and depression too! And don't tell me fetuses don't get depressed there in that dark womb. We know damn well they get restless.
estearum [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Drugs are approved for the specific uses based on extremely high-quality evidence. That evidence balances the benefits against the detectable downsides/costs/side-effects. Those downsides are also on the label.
That's almost entirely generated by the highest quality evidence generation system we could possibly have, which is RCTs. And no, pharma reps actually aren't allowed to encourage (or even talk about) off-label uses of drugs.
I get the sense that you don't know much about this space.
phendrenad2 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This article is about "how early a child is born or a child’s weight at birth". I don't know why we're talking about other possible negatives of Acetaminophen. Seems off-topic to me.
qsera [3 hidden]5 mins ago
clean chit!
tootie [3 hidden]5 mins ago
And yet I still see MAHA defenders even on HN.
DANmode [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Now do the study in mutated (MTHR, MTHFR, COMT, others, some combination of them) sample populations.
estearum [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Why?
DANmode [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Because those mutations change detox efficiencies.
Not sure I understand the question!
chappy789 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
[flagged]
mapontosevenths [3 hidden]5 mins ago
All smart people are curious about things outside their realms of expertise. Curiosity is one of the defining attributes of intelligence.
The desire to discuss those things is also reasonable. Though I would agree that those without credentials should probably abstain from expressing any potentially harmful opinions when healthcare is involved, the freedom to ask questions or bring up interesting digressions is fundamental.
eth0up [3 hidden]5 mins ago
So you think the cobbler should be only a cobbler aye? Pinko much? That really does model technocracy and authoritarianism well. What's your argument that enforcing ignorance on the working class and restricting knowledge to utility works, or is superior to a free society?
I expect, coming form one scholarly enough to be quoting elders, you'd have a strong one. Let's have it.
HN.zip
There’s only a weak and now discounted statistical association that was seized upon by two disgraceful anti-science politicians to create a political controversy.
Some personal grievance against Tylenol brand?
More graft from a competitor?
Appease their conspiracy loving dumbass base?
Destroy the scientific reputation of the US?
Trump is actually that fucking stupid?
All of the above?
Acetaminophen and dementia correlation:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2877629/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01638...
Note that it's also hard on the liver. A lot fatalities due to taking after hangovers, etc: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322813 So if you insist, maybe take some NAC.
But apparently, Ibuprofen helps counter the dementia risk:
https://www.aan.com/PressRoom/home/PressRelease/624
I am not not asserting any clever marketing here. I am merely citing public information. Noting all the above, I am confident it's perfectly safe for children and fetuses, and if posing any risk at all, applies strictly to full grown adults. No doubts about child safety have been expressed here.
Fatalities happen basically from: product stacking combination medicines people don't realize contain acetaminophen and/or multi-day accumulation exceeding max daily limit over multiple days.
Chronic drinkers have impaired acetaminophen processing so they can't handle otherwise safe doses, but fatalities still typically occur in multi-day accumulation scenarios. Their safe daily max is ~half that of a non drinker.
The effects of one round of acute drinking don't impair the liver in the same way. People are not dropping dead because they took a normal dose of acetaminophen for a hangover. Not that I'm recommending you start doing it, but it is a myth.
I find it obnoxious that NyQuil has taken over as the default brand people grab for cough syrup, for that reason. It has acetaminophen, while Robitussin or such have the other active ingredients without that risk.
The typical person doesn't read and understand active ingredients, and it's lucky if they even check dosage instructions.
Anecdotally, I hear about it far more in Internet comments like the parent than elsewhere. How common is it?
Of course, one might pause for a moment to consider just how potential the alluded benefits really are with ibuprofen, and ask why doctors aren't recommending it for mental health, or as a general health product. But that might point to the peculiar fact that there is substantially more evidence suggesting risk over health benefits, and the benefits really depend on what one wants to see. There is a reason it's not marketed as a health product, but with the way it's framed, it should be, nu? I mean, potential benefits sells a lot of snake oil and lowfat yogurt. Why not advil and acetaminophen?
And by similar logic used to dismiss acetaminophen here as a health risk, eg because there's no link with autism/ADHD it's safe; why not apply the same logic to opiates? We could just say opiates do not directly cause, eg , parkinsons, or AIDS, therefore it's safe for babies. Myself, I never correlated acetaminophen with autism/ADHD, but I know it has more side-effects than listen on the bottle.
Which also answers your other question of why doctors don't recommend it: we don't actually know that it does this.
As for the rest of the ramble, you (or I) definitely don't know hardly anything that hasn't been established in clinical trials. Certainly can't just vibes-based assess a label and its completeness. It's really, really hard to know things.
The precise wording as far as safety is: "we have no substantive or high-quality evidence that the drug is unsafe."
"we have no substantive or high-quality evidence that the drug is unsafe." - (damn all the research showing it is)
--to
"we have no substantive or high-quality evidence that the drug is safe." - (damn all the research suggesting it isn't)
Well, that's as good a green light for an ad campaign as one could ask for. "we don't actually know that it does this." ain't never stopped a motivated pharmaceutical rep before. You have my official endorsement for feeding advil and acetaminophen to all. And protection from dementia is just what America needs. !Win / !Win
Maybe restless leg and depression too! And don't tell me fetuses don't get depressed there in that dark womb. We know damn well they get restless.
That's almost entirely generated by the highest quality evidence generation system we could possibly have, which is RCTs. And no, pharma reps actually aren't allowed to encourage (or even talk about) off-label uses of drugs.
I get the sense that you don't know much about this space.
Not sure I understand the question!
The desire to discuss those things is also reasonable. Though I would agree that those without credentials should probably abstain from expressing any potentially harmful opinions when healthcare is involved, the freedom to ask questions or bring up interesting digressions is fundamental.
I expect, coming form one scholarly enough to be quoting elders, you'd have a strong one. Let's have it.