Maybe a personal analysis: It's a trend that is growing all over Europe. It's the equivalent of overtourism and a problem for the ruling parties (except the SVP that proposed it). Expect it to continue quite soon in Switzerland and other European countries (France, Germany etc.). Of course it doesn't make sense to curb immigration at 10 Mio and many know it. It was also for many a vote against the ruling parties. Although Switzerland is an immigration country, Swiss don't think this way. It's more farmer/alpine style: Welcome guests but expect them to leave again. Many Swiss also don't interact with foreigners a lot, including myself (besides at work). Many of my friends don't want to give up their prosperity. They are fairly advanced in their career and it's more about enjoying life. So for many of them it's more a rational decision than really a belief we should have more immigration. As long as I can benefit, it's good. For younger people it may be different. My wife, who is not native Swiss, was in favor. And compared to other countries, I think Xenophobia is low.

> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe

The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.

I think this somewhat federation causes problems similar (by design!) to those that the Federal System within the United States encourages.

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Hopefully we can all take inspiration from the living memories of balkanization – smaller groups, hopefully with shared interests and common backgrounds, ought to be in charge of themselves; and themselves, only.

To me it seems like EU countries are independently embarking on the Canada-policy of importing a whole bunch of South East Asians and Latin Americans. From Hungary to Ireland, you see the same trend.

Part of it is by economic necessity. For example finding nursing staff is very challenging and you have to compete with the US and Australia and other rich countries.

But part of it doesn't make much sense. We really don't need to import any kind of engineers from outside of Europe when we have about 2,500 EU universities pumping out graduates each year.

> We really don't need to import any kind of engineers from outside of Europe when we have about 2,500 EU universities pumping out graduates each year

False economy. More engineers, particularly diversely trained ones, are more likely to create self-reinforcing clusters. Nobody complains Silicon Valley has too many engineers (other than during a hiring off cycle) because in general, more engineers means more wealth and opportunities for each engineer.

> The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.

You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland.

(Only EU citizens benefit from freedom of movement to settle in Switzerland)

> You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland

Yes. I’m also conceding to the SVP the observation that a good fraction of said nationals are recently naturalized.

Is this Berlin that decides anything and rolls it out contintent-wide with us in the room right now?

Berlin is basically forcing the EU's hand regarding the Gaza war, so, yes?

How is that related to immigration?

> Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly

That's what I was responding to.

Note the UK left the EU and accepted more immigrants than before. We didn't force them. Hungary and Poland never accepted Syrian immigrants either and they weren't forced to accept them iirc.

Berlin single-handedly banned Yanks Varoufakis from entering the Schengen area. More specifically, because he said something about Gaza.

> Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly

Fair enough and great point.

It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany. (Though still much harder than in America, at least based on my American friends who naturalized there and this Swiss of Indian and Germanic origin who naturalized in America.) It’s fair for those countries to want to maintain those differences.

Some countries print them out very liberally though. Sweden did not require financial self-sufficiency or language ability until like 2 weeks ago. I raised this point back in like 2015 and was promptly called a racist. So these have been handed to people who have nothing to do with the country. Few other countries have done this too but less so. Now all their children etc. will have unfettered access to Switzerland.

Tbh I cannot see anything else but Swiss people at some point voting themselves out of this somehow.

Switzerland getting Indians with German passports, maybe not something that was thought back in those days when there were signed? Western Europe will be a massive powder keg in 20 years

While they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss.

> While they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss.

What's this Swiss language you speak of? I never heard of it. You must mean Romansh but that's only 0.5% of the population or so. You'd have to kick out 95.5% of the Swiss population too then?

That’s their point. Switzerland is a nation of immigrants. We don’t tend to be portrayed as such outside. And the SVP tends to forget this. (As does the GOP.)

> refusing to speak Swiss

I know this is tongue in cheek. But one of the hallmarks of a nation of immigrants is the enforced tolerance of speaking multiple national languages. Lots of people who only speak on throws off that balance.

So what?

I despise such openly xenophobic posts.

And Indian immigration tends to be the most educated and wealthy. It's also the wealthiest ethnic group in the US. By far.

In any case, leaving Schengen for Switzerland would be de facto equivalent to Brexit, an economic disaster.

Switzerland thrives by attracting highly qualified professionals for it's service and manufacturing industries and yes, also at the lower end where Swiss nationals aren't lining up to be plumbers, couriers or cleaning staff.

Maybe they prefer living amongst themselves than make number go to the moon. If these guys are such GDP rocket fuel and a solution, they can make their own country the best in the world.

I visited few times and I like the country but I don't expect them to accept or cater to me.

> Western Europe will be a massive powder keg in 20 years

Western Europe has been a powder keg for at least three millennia. The only thing keeping a cap on it recently was American hegemony. (EDIT: to be clear, American hegemony is waning. The powder keg is uncapped, and we’re one of the parties throwing in matches.)

> America is who's propping up all the far right parties now

Oh, to be clear, yes.

Can you explain why you think xenophobia is low? My experience as a swed is that xenophobia and trying to avoid immigration often go hand in hand. You do not have a large Swiss right populist semi racist party like most other European countries have?

How are the job prospects and housing prices? Switzerland is beautiful and I would gladly move there for six or so equivalent figures..

If you are non-EU, you will not get a work permit.

If you are EU or do get a work permit, you will not get housing.

The vote was for a reason…

You can get housing, you have to trade money for time and commute with the (frequent and reliable) public transportation.

Meanwhile the parlement and the anti+immigration far-right vote all the time to increase landlord rights and margins. Most of them are landlords, of course...

They pay incredibly well, but their work culture (vacation, protections for parents etc) is atrocious. They're on par with Japan/South Korea.

You get bonus points for commuting across the German border and utilizing our cheap prices. Don't forget to get the value-added tax refunded!

Meat trafficking over the border is one of my hobbies.

I have heard some murmurings that the issue is also that Germany is mass naturalizing people so they are getting Indians with German passports, that was probably not something they thought at the time. And tbh some EU countries really print out passports much easier than others, compared to something like UAE where they never give citizenship. Although in recent years many countries have made it harder, I feel it's too little too late.

What we will see in Western Europe in 20 years will be truly something to behold, I guess in UK the frogs have already started to slowly realized they are being boiled after being betrayed by the so called "conservatives" for 16 years.

Pure bullshit. Even the Swiss tabloid don't invent "rumours" as ludicrous as your snti-indian lie.

The amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd.

_Immigration is only cool as long as it's my favourite ethnic groups_ state of mind.

The SVP campaign in favor of the initiative was something else. Half the country is plastered with their posters, and social media is full of astroturfing. It didn't pay off this times, but the propaganda dominance of this party is concerning.

Never heard of a hard limit on population. What happens if you go over?

It was terrible for girls born in China when they had their one child limit.

In case people were wondering about the result of that thread which made the front page a few days ago…

This one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48450059

The Masseneinwanderungsinitiative passed in 2014... and fuck all happened. When push comes to shove, there is a solid bloc in parliament and the executive for saving the EU bilaterals, even if it means ignoring constitutional initiatives.

More surprising it didn't pass the "majority of cantons" either (both are required for initiatives like this), I would have expected it to pass (there are a lot of smaller/rural/alpine cantons which tends to vote more conservative).

Only 58% of the voters voted.

55% no is… ok? Typical for such votes?

But of course, the SVP have been launching the same initiative since the 70s, they are unlikely to stop now.

>55% no is… ok? Typical for such votes?

Very typical, and even higher than usual.

The Swiss have votations all the time. They also can vote by mail. Those who didn't vote had no opinion, or no strong opinion, on the matter.

Also, cities who should suffer the most of overcrowding by immigrants voted against, as well as cantons situated at the border, while the backcountry who never see any immigrant voted in favor.

maybe next time it will be 11M

The issue is this means in aggregate only around 3-5% of the total population needs to flip in it's opinions for CHexit to happen - which is very doable over two election cycles.

A 55% win with 58% turnout despite how this vote was front and center of media discourse is very worrisome as this shows how disengaged the other 42% are.

> in aggregate only around 3-5% of the total population needs to flip in it's opinions for CHexit to happen

If the marketing were less xenophobic and the cap were derived from some scientific basis, I think I could be persuaded to vote for it. Particularly since it is not a vote for Chexit, but a democratic vote to confront the EU. (Britain triggered Article 50. Nothing in this referendum directs Berne to do that.)

> a democratic vote to confront the EU

In what way? It is a vote to adopt a policy that is in breach of your international treaty obligations. Unilaterally breaching your obligations is not a grounds for discussion or compromise, it is simply an exit from them, benefits included.

Suppose you're not getting on with your roommate. You could talk to them and try to resolve the problems, or you could default on your lease and receive an eviction notice from the landlord. You are opting for the latter. That is not "confronting" anything, it is a done deal. It is a choice you are allowed to make, to be clear, just as the Brits did, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't.

I mean technically, it was also rejected by the Kantons-as-entities so if that 5% is unevenly spread, theoretically it could still be rejected by Kantonal majority…

> political right, the anti-abortion people

Anti-immigrant. It’s an immigration cap.

> reduce global human growth for climate preservation, are opposed?

Pro-EU. The cap is within half a million of the current population and pretty much immediately set to trigger consultations.

I actually deliberated on this one and landed against because of how proximate the cap was set and the pretty horrible tone of the pro-cap side’s marketing.

In Europe the right doesn't really care about abortion that much, its not really something i hear parties discuss. Their main focal point is immigration, anti-muslim sentiment.

The left can be for reduction of GLOBAL human growth, but still increase LOCAL growth, which is primarily caused by immigration not birthrate.

It also looks like most of European right is explicitly anti-immigration, and all other issues are usually indistinguishable from left.

It is about immigration, not population control.

I'm assuming that this is a proxy for an immigration debate if that's how the left and right split

Yes, but not just “immigration”, but open borders with the EU: most immigrants in Switzerland are EU citizens, and it fits in a broader framework of Swiss-European agreement, capping population would almost certainly imply withdrawal from this framework.

Cities once again save rural voters from civic suicide.