The thing I didn't understand after watching that video was why you need such an exotic solution to produce EUV light. We can make lights no problem in the visible spectrum, we can make xray machines easily enough that every doctors office can afford one, what is it specifically about those wavelengths that are so tricky.
zozbot234 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
There is such a thing as X-ray lithography, but it comes with significant challenges that make it not really worth it compared to EUV.
bpavuk [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I'd like to hear more about these challenges
on_the_train [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It really is the specific wavelength. Higher or lower is easier. But euv has tricky properties which make it feasible for Lithography (although just barely it you have a look at the optics) but hard to produce with high intensities.
formerly_proven [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Specifically, what makes x-rays easy to generate are these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_X-ray In essence, smashing electrons into atoms allows you to ionize the inner shell of an atom and when an electron drops down from an outer shell, the excess energy is shed as high-energy photons. This constrains the energy range of X-ray tubes ("smash electron into metal") to wavelengths well below 13.5nm.
(These emission lines are also what is being used in x-ray spectroscopy to identify elements)
s0rce [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You can also generate broad spectrum bremsstrahlung radiation easily, this is widely used for medical X-rays.
YetAnotherNick [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Any source to this? I am hearing this for the first time.
The whole “exploding tiny drops of metal” in the middle of this is just Loony Toons. This machine is literally insane and two of the companies I am long-long on would be completely fucked without it.
patmorgan23 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You forgot WITH LASERS, and IN A VACUUM
atonse [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Yes it was crazy when I first heard about it "wait what? they shoot it in mid-air?" and that was before I found out they did that like 30k times a second.
But now 100k times a second apparently. Humans are amazing.
hinkley [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You have a machine that’s basically a clean room inside and one of the parts is essentially electrosputtering tin but then throwing all the tin away and using the EM pulse from the sputter to do work.
Oh and can you build it so it can run hundreds or thousands of hours before being cleaned? Thanks byyyyyyyyeeeeee!
lelandbatey [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The inside of those machines are far, far cleaner than the inside of any clean room ever entered by a human. They have to be molecularly clean.
b3orn [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Which isn't easy considering they explode tin droplets in the machine. I think that's the point the other commenter wanted to make.
flowerthoughts [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> We are going to spray expensive stuff in an extremely fine and precise line. Then we're going to shoot a laser at each droplet.
< Why?!
> To make a better laser.
< Yes, of course you are.
> 100,000 times per second.
< [AFK, buying shares.]
hinkley [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I have shares in one of their biggest customers, and one of their customer’s biggest customers.
We are quickly leaving the realm of dependent variables still looking anything like diversification.
hinkley [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Okay this is weird.
> The key advancements in Monday's disclosure involved doubling the number of tin drops to about 100,000 every second, and shaping them into plasma using two smaller laser bursts, as opposed to today's machines that use a single shaping burst.
This is covered in that video. Did they let him leak their Q1 plans?
xnx [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> The company's researchers have found a way to boost the power of the EUV light source to 1,000 watts from 600 watts now.
> "We see a reasonably clear path toward 1,500 watts, and no fundamental reason why we couldn't get to 2,000 watts."
tromp [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The light power increase is even more impressive at 67%:
> The company's researchers have found a way to boost the power of the EUV light source to 1,000 watts from 600 watts now.
with more on the horizon:
> We see a reasonably clear path toward 1,500 watts, and no fundamental reason why we couldn't get to 2,000 watts.
throw0101a [3 hidden]5 mins ago
So how small are individual components (e.g., transistors) nowadays? Presumably there's a lower limit: once you're a few atoms across, it seems that you can't go any smaller (?).
ahazred8ta [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Gates are about 30-50 nm wide, even though they're called '3nm' for marketing reasons.
phkahler [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Metal pitch is 26nm. That means parallel wires can be placed 2 wavelengths apart with 13.5nm light.
penguin_booze [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Like free range chicken.
kakacik [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You only need to live in reasonable place for that phrase to have a proper meaning, across whole market from cheapest to most expensive.
whazor [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This is about increasing output per machine via upgrades.
cyptus [3 hidden]5 mins ago
some gates are only 10-14 nm wide, thats about 50 silicon atoms!
I still think we should have gone with average gates per square mm as a new yardstick. It would also make sense to the Numbers Go Up people.
itopaloglu83 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It’s going to be quite funny if they can go below 40nm in gate pitch size, because they’ll need to call it 0nm.
dogma1138 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
They are moving to angstroms, hence 18A for example.
onjectic [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> SAN DIEGO, California
> to help retain the Dutch company's edge over emerging U.S. and Chinese rivals
Great news, but what a strange attempt to equate the U.S. and China in this and build a narrative. Cymer was founded in San Diego.
petcat [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Yeah it's an interesting angle in the article. The EUV light source technology is completely designed, developed, and manufactured by Cymer in California, which is a US company that ASML acquired in 2013. If export control agreements were not in place then ASML would have never been permitted to acquire Cymer. And if they are not enforced then the US would almost certainly require ASML to sell Cymer back to US ownership, TikTok-style.
The reality is that it's American technology that is used in ASML machines so I don't know why the article tries to frame it like it's a competition.
merb [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Your take is also a bad one. No what asml builds is not American technology. Why asml succeeded is because they got tons of company’s and people to help them advance the technology of the chip industry. Yes it wouldn’t be possible without the Americans. But it would also not be possible without the Europeans, the Koreans, etc… what asml did was basically ask the technology leaders in each field to build their best product so that they can take their parts and assembly this awesome piece of technology.
ahartmetz [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Which American rival would that be anyway? I have not heard of any.
petcat [3 hidden]5 mins ago
xLight is the promising new US competitor to Cymer. Lots of funding from the US CHIPS And Science Act. Founded by Dept. of Energy engineers who formerly worked on large-scale X-Ray systems and particle accelerators.
christkv [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I think the Japanese are also working on potentially competing technology
on_the_train [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This is a steep increase of power to get out of a vacuum system that is highly sensitive to temperature changes.
HN.zip
(These emission lines are also what is being used in x-ray spectroscopy to identify elements)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2482h_TNwg
Or this presentation which came out way long ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0
But now 100k times a second apparently. Humans are amazing.
Oh and can you build it so it can run hundreds or thousands of hours before being cleaned? Thanks byyyyyyyyeeeeee!
< Why?!
> To make a better laser.
< Yes, of course you are.
> 100,000 times per second.
< [AFK, buying shares.]
We are quickly leaving the realm of dependent variables still looking anything like diversification.
> The key advancements in Monday's disclosure involved doubling the number of tin drops to about 100,000 every second, and shaping them into plasma using two smaller laser bursts, as opposed to today's machines that use a single shaping burst.
This is covered in that video. Did they let him leak their Q1 plans?
> "We see a reasonably clear path toward 1,500 watts, and no fundamental reason why we couldn't get to 2,000 watts."
> The company's researchers have found a way to boost the power of the EUV light source to 1,000 watts from 600 watts now.
with more on the horizon:
> We see a reasonably clear path toward 1,500 watts, and no fundamental reason why we couldn't get to 2,000 watts.
> to help retain the Dutch company's edge over emerging U.S. and Chinese rivals
Great news, but what a strange attempt to equate the U.S. and China in this and build a narrative. Cymer was founded in San Diego.
The reality is that it's American technology that is used in ASML machines so I don't know why the article tries to frame it like it's a competition.