HN.zip

Initialization in C++ is bonkers (2017)

178 points by todsacerdoti - 180 comments
shadowdev1 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Heh, low comments on C++ posts now. A sign of the times. My two cents anyway.

I've been using C++ for a decade. Of all the warts, they all pale in comparison to the default initialization behavior. After seeing thousands of bugs, the worst have essentially been caused by cascading surprises from initialization UB from newbies. The easiest, simplest fix is simply to default initialize with a value. That's what everyone expects anyway. Use Python mentality here. Make UB initialization an EXPLICIT choice with a keyword. If you want garbage in your variable and you think that's okay for a tiny performance improvement, then you should have to say it with a keyword. Don't just leave it up to some tiny invisible visual detail no one looks at when they skim code (the missing parens). It really is that easy for the language designers. When thinking about backward compatibility... keep in mind that the old code was arguably already broken. There's not a good reason to keep letting it compile. Add a flag for --unsafe-initialization-i-cause-trouble if you really want to keep it.

C++, I still love you. We're still friends.

juliangmp [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> When thinking about backward compatibility... keep in mind that the old code was arguably already broken. There's not a good reason to keep letting it compile.

Oh how I wish the C++ committee and compiler authors would adopt this way of thinking... Sadly we're dealing with an ecosystem where you have to curate your compiler options and also use clang-tidy to avoid even the simplest mistakes :/

Like its insane to me how Wconversion is not the default behavior.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Oh how I wish the C++ committee and compiler authors would adopt this way of thinking...

I disagree. If you expect anyone to adopt your new standard revision, the very least you need to do is ensure their code won't break just by flipping s flag. You're talking about production software, many of which has decades worth of commit history, which you simply cannot spend time going through each and every single line of code of your >1M LoC codebase. That's the difference between managing production-grade infrastructure and hobbyist projects.

nickysielicki [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> You're talking about production software, many of which has decades worth of commit history, which you simply cannot spend time going through each and every single line of code of your >1M LoC codebase.

They can keep using the old standard.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> They can keep using the old standard.

But they cannot upgrade. Ever. At least without requiring major maintenance work. Which means never. Do you understand what that means?

nickysielicki [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Every compiler continues to support old standards. What risk am I missing? This feels like a perfectly acceptable outcome for icky legacy code that is not essential enough to maintain.
dwattttt [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> If you expect anyone to adopt your new standard revision, the very least you need to do is ensure their code won't break just by flipping s flag.

Why would you expect that a new revision can't cause existing code to compile? It means that "new" revisions can't fix old problems, and one thing you always get more of over time is perspective.

If you don't want your code "broken", don't migrate to a new standard. That's the point of supporting old standards. Don't hobble new standards because you both want new things, but don't want old things to change.

johannes1234321 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The option there is better tooling, for which the foundation exists which can do such maintenance somewhat automatically, in the simplest case by just adding the Keywords to request old behavior.

But the annoyance comes when dealing with multiple compilers and versions. Then you have to add more compatibility macros all over. Say, when being a library vendor trying to support broad range of customers.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> The option there is better tooling (...)

The tooling already exists. The bulk of the criticism in this thread is clearly made from a position of ignorance. For example, all major compilers already provide flags to enable checks for uninitialized variables being used. Onboarding a static code analysis tool nowadays requires setting a flag in CMake.

These discussions would be constructive if those engaging in them had any experience at all with the language and tooling. But no, it seems the goal is to parrot cliches out of ignorance. Complaining that they don't know what a reserved word means and using that as an argument to rewrite software in other languages is somehow something worth stating.

mystified5016 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Python seems to still be pretty popular despite breaking most extant code with language updates
monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
And the cost of this is that every time I open a project in another language it’s broken and I have to make changes to fix all their little breaking changes.
zahlman [3 hidden]5 mins ago
>Oh how I wish the C++ committee and compiler authors would adopt this way of thinking

Many different committees, organizations etc. could benefit, IMO.

josefx [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> keep in mind that the old code was arguably already broken

The code is only broken if the data is used before anything is written to it. A lot of uninitialized data is wrapped by APIs that prevent reading before something was written to it, for example the capacity of a standard vector, buffers for IO should only access bytes that where already stored in them. I have also worked with a significant number of APIs that expect a large array of POD types and then tell you how many entries they filled.

> for a tiny performance improvement

Given how Linux allocates memory pages only if they are touched and many containers intentionally grow faster then they are used? It reduces the amount of page faults and memory use significantly if only the used objects get touched at all.

riehwvfbk [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You are very very unlikely to trigger Linux overcommit behavior by not initializing a member variable. It's even more unlikely for this to be a good thing.

In effect, you are assuming that your uninitialized and initialized variables straddle a page boundary. This is obviously not going to be a common occurrence. In the common case you are allocating something on the heap. That heap chunk descriptor before your block has to be written, triggering a page fault.

Besides: taking a page fault, entering the kernel, modifying the page table page (possibly merging some VMAs in the process) and exiting back to userspace is going to be A LOT slower than writing that variable.

OK you say, but what if I have a giant array of these things that spans many pages. In that case your performance and memory usage are going to be highly unpredictable (after all, initializing a single thing in a page would materialize that whole page).

OK, but vectors. They double in size, right? Well, the default allocator for vectors will actually zero-initialize the new elements. You could write a non-initializing allocator and use it for your vectors - and this is in line with "you have to say it explicitly to get dangerous behavior".

josefx [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> In effect, you are assuming that your uninitialized and initialized variables straddle a page boundary

You are assuming that I am working with small data structures, don't use arrays of data, don't have large amounts of POD members, ... .

> That heap chunk descriptor before your block has to be written, triggering a page fault.

So you allocate one out of hundreds of pages? The cost is significantly less than the alternative.

> In that case your performance and memory usage are going to be highly unpredictable (after all, initializing a single thing in a page would materialize that whole page).

As opposed to initializing thousands of pages you will never use at once? Or allocating single pages when they are needed?

> Well, the default allocator for vectors will actually zero-initialize the new elements.

I reliably get garbage data after the first reserve/shrink_to_fit calls. Not sure why the first one returns all zero, I wouldn't rely on it.

jchw [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> You are assuming that I am working with small data structures, don't use arrays of data, don't have large amounts of POD members, ... .

Sounds like a great set of use cases for explicit syntax to opt out of automatic initialization.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> You are very very unlikely to trigger Linux overcommit behavior by not initializing a member variable.

The problem with your assumption is that you're just arguing that it's ok for code to be needlessly buggy if you believe the odds this bug is triggered are low. OP points out a known failure mode and explains how a feature eliminates it. You intentionally ignore it for no reason.

This assumption is baffling when, in the exact same thread, you see people whining about C++ for allowing memory-related bugs to exist.

yorwba [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Linux overcommit is not a bug, it's a feature. The argument isn't that it's okay for code to be buggy if the odds of triggering the bug are low, it's that it's okay for code to not make use of a feature if the odds of benefiting from that feature are low.
motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Linux overcommit is not a bug, it's a feature.

You failed to read what I wrote. I referred to why clients would choose to not initialize early to avoid scenarios such as Linux over committing, not that Linux had a bug.

yorwba [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Overcommit is an optimization where virtual memory that is allocated but unused is not mapped to physical memory. If you want to avoid this (for some reason), choosing not to initialize early is not going to have the intended effect.
motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Overcommit is an optimization where virtual memory that is allocated but unused is not mapped to physical memory.

Either you're replying without bothering to read the messages you're replying to, or you're failing to understand what is being written.

> If you want to avoid this (for some reason), choosing not to initialize early is not going to have the intended effect.

Read PP's comment.

fooker [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> keep in mind that the old code was arguably already broken.

Reminder than compiler devs are usually paid by trillion dollar companies that make billions with 'old code'.

redandblack [3 hidden]5 mins ago
stupid question as I have not tpuched C++ since the 90s - can the IDEs not do this with all these now almost universal linters and AI assists. Maybe something that prompts before a commit and autoprompts before/after fixes to only the inititaization. Maybe simple as a choice in the refactoring menu? Rust - where are you for proposing this fix to C++ or, is it javascript?
tails4e [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Especially when doing the right/safe thing by default is at worst a minor performance hit. They could change the default to be sane and provide a backwards compatible switch to pragma to revert to the less safe version. They could, but for some reason never seem to make such positive changes
vrighter [3 hidden]5 mins ago
that's the undefined keyword in zig. I love it. It makes UB opt-in and explicit
loeg [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Compilers should add this as a non-standard extension, right? -ftrivial-auto-var-init=zero is a partial solution to a related problem, but it seems like they could just... not have UB here. It can't be that helpful for optimization.
Matheus28 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Yes but it’s not portable. If zero initialization were the default and you had to opt-in with [[uninitialized]] for each declaration it’d be a lot safer. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen any time soon.
tialaramex [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You probably don't want zero initialization if you can help it.

Ideally, what you want is what Rust and many modern languages do: programs which don't explain what they wanted don't compile, so, when you forget to initialize that won't compile. A Rust programmer can write "Don't initialize this 1024 byte buffer" and get the same (absence of) code but it's a hell of a mouthful - so they won't do it by mistake.

The next best option, which is what C++ 26 will ship, is what they called "Erroneous Behaviour". Under EB it's defined as an error not to initialize something you use but it is also defined what happens so you can't have awful UB problems, typically it's something like the vendor specifies which bit pattern is written to an "unintialized" object and that's the pattern you will observe.

Why not zero? Unfortunately zero is too often a "magic" value in C and C++. It's the Unix root user, it's often an invalid or reserved state for things. So while zero may be faster in some cases, it's usually a bad choice and should be avoided.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Ideally, what you want is what Rust and many modern languages do: programs which don't explain what they wanted don't compile, so, when you forget to initialize that won't compile.

I think you're confusing things. You're arguing about static code analysis being able to identify uninitialized var reads. All C++ compilers already provide support for flags such as -Wuninitiaized.

bluGill [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Uninitialized variables reads can only sometimes be detected statically. -Wuninitialized is still good, but it will miss a lot of cases when the read is in a different translation unit. Whole program analysis could get more cases, but with large programs (multi-million lines of code) it is unlikely we can analyze everything (everything being more than just variables) before the universe ends - see the halting problem.
dwattttt [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> You're arguing about static code analysis being able to identify uninitialized var reads.

(Safe) Rust does guarantee to identify uninitialised variable reads, but I believe the point is that you can get the optimisation of not forcing early initialisation in Rust, you just have to be explicit that that's what you want (you use the MaybeUninit type); you're forced to be clear that that's what you meant, not just by forgetting parens.

tialaramex [3 hidden]5 mins ago
You can even write e.g. this:

  let mut jim: Goat;
  // Potentially much later ...
  if some_reason {
    jim = make_a_new_goat();
  } else {
    jim = get_existing_goat();
  }
  use(jim); // In some way we use that goat now
The compiler can see OK, we eventually initialized this variable before we used it, there's no way we didn't initialize it so that's fine, this compiles.

But, if we screw up and make it unclear whether jim is initialized, probably because in some cases it wouldn't be - that doesn't compile.

This is the usual "avoid early initialization" C++ programmers are often thinking of and it doesn't need MaybeUninit, since it's definitely fine if you're correct, it's just that the C++ compiler is happy (before C++ 26) with just having Undefined Behaviour if you make any mistakes and the Rust compiler will reject that.

[Idiomatically this isn't good Rust, Rust is an expression language so we can just write all that conditional if-else block in the initializer itself and that's nicer, but if you're new to this the above works fine.]

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> (Safe) Rust does guarantee to identify uninitialised variable reads (...)

That's great. You can get that check on C++ projects by flipping a compiler flag.

Aren't we discussing C++?

leni536 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Something like that is heading into C++26 actually. Except the initialization is not to zero, but to some unspecified value (with explicit intention of not allowing leaking garbage) and allowing to trap. It's called "erroneous values".
loeg [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I don't really care if it isn't portable. I only have to work with Clang, personally.

> If zero initialization were the default and you had to opt-in with [[uninitialized]] for each declaration it’d be a lot safer.

I support that, too. Just seems harder than getting a flag into Clang or GCC.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> I don't really care if it isn't portable.

You don't care because your job is not to ensure that a new release of C++ doesn't break production code. You gaze at your navel and pretend that's the universe everyone is bound to. But there are others using C++, and using it in production software. Some of them care, and your subjective opinions don't have an impact in everyone else's requirements.

> I only have to work with Clang, personally.

Read Clang's manual and check what compiler flags you need to flip to get that behavior. It's already there.

ryandrake [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Portability is always for the other guy’s sake, not your own. That’s why so many people don’t care about it.
loeg [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Again, I'm not opposed to the idea, it just seems more challenging logistically.
TuxSH [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Gcc already has [[gnu::uninitialized]] (clang doesn't, AFAIK), as well as -ftrivial-auto-var-init=pattern which exactly matches the new C++26 semantics, if I'm not mistaken
MichaelRo [3 hidden]5 mins ago
>> Of all the warts, they all pale in comparison to the default initialization behavior.

Come on. That's nothing compared to the horrors that lay in manual memory management. Like I've never worked with a C++ based application that doesn't have crashes lurking all around, so bad that even a core dump leaves you clueless as to what's happening. Couple OOP involving hundreds of classes and 50 levels deep calls with 100s of threads and you're hating your life when trying to find the cause for yet another crash.

bluGill [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I can write bad code in rust too. Rust makes it more difficult, but if you try hard you can abuse it to get the same hundreds of classes and 50 level deep calls, and 100s of threads. You can even do manual memory management in Rust - it isn't built into the language but you can call system APIs to allocate memory if you really want to be stupid. Don't do that is the answer.

Good programmers have long ago written best practices guides based on hard learned experience. Newer languages (like Rust) were designed by people who read those guides and made a language that made using those features hard.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Come on. That's nothing compared to the horrors that lay in manual memory management. Like I've never worked with a C++ based application that doesn't have crashes lurking all around, so bad that even a core dump leaves you clueless as to what's happening.

Have you tried fixing the bugs in your code?

That strategy has been followed by people writing code in every single language, and when used (even with C++) you do drive down the number of these crashes to a residual/purely theoretical frequency.

Scenarios such as those you've described are rare. There should be more to them than the tool you're using to do your job. So why blame the tool?

kaashif [3 hidden]5 mins ago
50 levels deep? With some of the template metaprogramming I've seen, looking at just the types for just one level will not only fill your screen, but take up megabytes on disk...
nlehuen [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Not to worry, there is a 278 page book about initialization in C++!

https://leanpub.com/cppinitbook

(I don't know whether it's good or not, I just find it fascinating that it exists)

bhk [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Wow! Exhibit 1 for the prosecution.
codr7 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That's what I've been saying, every line of C++ is a book waiting to be written.
kazinator [3 hidden]5 mins ago
C++ doesn't have initiation hazing rituals, but initialization hazing rituals. (One of which is that book.)
nitrogen99 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Well, authors are incentivized into writing long books. Having said that it obviously doesn't take away the fact that C++ init is indeed bonkers.
harry8 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
What would be the incentive for making this a long book? Couldn't be money.
jcelerier [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It is actually. It's been shown that longer books make more sales as they are considered more trustworthy, so authors are incentivized to artificially drag them longer than they actually require
harry8 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Ever written one? How much did you make?
bluGill [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The money isn't from book sales. The money is you can charge higher consultant fees because "you wrote the book". If you don't play the game of course you won't make money, but writing a book is one step. (the full game has lots of different paths, there are other ways to make a lot of money without writing a book)
Analemma_ [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I imagine if I'd managed to actually memorize all of C++'s initialization rules, I'd probably have to write a book too just to get it all out, or I'd lose my sanity.
sph [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Then you can proudly put “C++ initialization consultant” on your resumé and get paid $1000 a day fixing class constructors at Fortune 500 companies.
codr7 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
There are no limits to how much of an specialized expert you can become in C++.

Knowing all of it just isn't possible from my experience.

rnikander [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Been trying Rust for some months now. The IDE experience is so much nicer I'm probably sticking with it, but the restrictions on how I write code are still grating on me. I need to learn the language better, but now I still feel like I wanted something more like C++ 2.0 without as much paradigm shift.
agent327 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The answer to this is to replace default-init by zero-init. This removes all special cases and all surprise, at a cost that is minimal (demonstrated experimentally by its implementation in things like Windows and Chrome) or even negative. Doing so would make software safer, and more reproducible, and it would make the object model more sound by removing the strange zombie state that exists only for primitive types.

Of course we should provide a mechanism to allow large arrays to remain uninitialized, but this should be an explicit choice, rather than the default behaviour.

However, will it happen? It's arguably the easiest thing C++ could do to make software safer, but there appears to be no interest in the committee to do anything with safety other than talk about it.

shultays [3 hidden]5 mins ago

  Of course we should provide a mechanism to allow large arrays to remain uninitialized, but this should be an explicit choice, rather than the default behaviour.
First you are saying "cost is minimal even negative" and then already arguing against it on the next paragraph.
ddulaney [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The general cost over a several large codebases has been observed to be minimal. Yet, there are specific scenarios where the costs are real and observable. For those rare cases, an explicit opt-in to risky behavior makes sense.
shultays [3 hidden]5 mins ago

  The general cost over a several large codebases has been observed to be minimal
Is this unexpected? A large code base has a lot of other things and it is normal that such changes will be a rounding error. There are lots of other bottlenecks that will just overwhelm such a such change. I don't think "it is not affecting large code bases as much", you can use that argument for pretty much anything that adds an overhead

Not to mention if you change every int a to int a=0 right now, in those code bases, a=0 part will likely to be optimized away since that value is not being (shouldn't be) used at all and likely will be overwritten in all code paths

monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
We all agree, poor defaults were chosen in C++ across the board. we have learned a lot about languages since then.

The question is what to do about it - balancing the cost of change to code and to engineers who learned it.

> but there appears to be no interest in the committee to do anything with safety other than talk about it.

There is plenty of interest in improving C++ safety. It’s a regular topic of discussion.

Part of that discussion is how it will help actual code bases that exist.

Should the committee do some breaking changes to make HN commenters happier, who don’t even use the language?

112233 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
There is no hope for committee. In C++33 we will probably have variables defined as

    int const<const> auto(decltype(int)) x requires(static) = {{{}}};
And when asked how on earth did this happen and why, there will be the same "we must think about the existing code, the defaults were very poor"

Meanwhile they absolutely could make sane defaults when you plonk "#pragma 2033" in the source (or something, see e.g. Baxter's Circle compiler), but where would be the fun of that.

They still use single pass compiling (and order of definitions) as the main guiding principle...

monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I’m with you - the features they add are baffling.

> we must think about the existing code, the defaults were very poor"

What does adding bad features have to do with maintaining defaults?

agent327 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I was not proposing sweeping changes to all the defaults in C++, I was proposing to adopt a single, specific change. That change does not break any existing code, removes pitfalls from the language, and has already been tried by industry and found to be beneficial. Why is it not in C++26?

https://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2023/p2754r0... provides what appears to be the answer to this question: "No tools will be able to detect existing logical errors since they will become indistinguishable from intentional zero initialization. The declarations int i; and int i = 0; would have precisely the same meaning." ...yes, they would. _That's the point_. The paper has it exactly the wrong way around: currently tools cannot distinguish between logical error and intentional deferred initialization, but having explicit syntax for the latter would make the intention clear 100% of the time. Leaving a landmine in the language just because it gives you more warnings is madness. The warning wouldn't be needed to begin with, if there were no landmine.

I'm not sure what you mean with "who don't even use the language". Are you implying that only people that program professionally in C++ have any stake in reliable software?

monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Are you implying that only people that program professionally in C++ have any stake in reliable software?

No. I’m saying people who don’t understand C++ aren’t going to have good ideas about how to make initialization better.

BlackFly [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Should the committee do some breaking changes to make HN commenters happier, who don’t even use the language?

As phrased, you clearly want the answer to this question to be no, but the irony there is that that is how you kill a language. This is simply survivor bias, like inspecting the bullet damage only on the fighter planes that survive. You should also be listening to people who don't want to use your language to understand why they don't want that, especially people that stopped using the language. Otherwise you risk becoming more and more irrelevant. It won't all be valuable evidence, but they are clearly the people that cannot live with the problems. When other languages listen, better alternatives arise.

monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> you clearly want the answer to this question to be no

Uh yes. It’s phrased that way because it’s absurd. About half the comments in this section are a form of name calling by people who don’t understand constructors/destructors.

Those people who have no insight into how to make initialization better.

> Otherwise you risk becoming more and more irrelevant

Relevancy is relative to an audience. You want to listen to people who care and have your interests in mind.

C++ and Java are the most relevant languages in terms of professional software engineering.

BlackFly [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I would say the answer is to replace both with explicit init unless you explicitly say some equivalent of "Trust me, bro," to the compiler. Some structs/data (especially RAII structs backing real resources) have no sensible default or zero.

But yeah, most structs have a good zero value so a shorthand to create that can be ergonomic over forced explicitness.

agent327 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That would be a breaking change though. Having default zero-init would apply to existing source and convey it's benefits simply by recompiling, without any engineering hours being required.
gnabgib [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Small discussion at the time (42 points, 6 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14532478

Related: Initialization in C++ is Seriously Bonkers (166 points, 2019, 126 points) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18832311

ts4z [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This is a specialization of the general statement that C++ is bonkers.
MichaelMoser123 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
and putting structure instances into an array so that you can refer to them via indexes of the array entries (as the only escape from being maimed by the borrow checker) is normal?
lblume [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Unlike Rust, C++ at least has specialization...
ValtteriL [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The book Beautiful C++: 30 Core Guidelines for Writing Clean, Safe, and Fast Code recommends initializing/providing default values for member variables in default member initializers intead of the initializer list used here.

""" Default member initializers define a default value at the point of declaration. If there is a member that cannot be defined in such a way, it suggests that there may be no legal mechanism by which a default constructor can be defined. """

monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Initialization does look insane. But as with most C++ complexity this is inherent.

Lists of the “good parts” of C++ over C usually include RAII. But f we imagine starting with C and adding C++ features to see when complexity explodes. I think the worst offender is constructor/destructor.

They require the language to perfectly track the lifetime of each member of every structure. If you resize a vector, every entry must call a constructor. If exceptions are possible, but insert little cleanup calls into all possible code paths.

Want to make a copy of something? Who is responsible for calling constructor/destructor. Want to make a struct? What if one member requires construction? How do you handle a union?

The result is micromanaging and turning most operations into O(n) init/cleanup calls.

The modern C approach avoids all of this and allows you to manage pieces of memory - rather than values. Zero initialize or leave uninitialized.

So what do we lose? Well classes own resources. If you have a vector<MyObject> and MyObject has a member vector<Items> then we should be able to cleanup without looking inside each member of each element.

I think we should separate resource allocation from use. Allocators are the things that care about cleanup, move, etc. This should be the exception - rather than the default way to think about structs.

gpderetta [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Want to make a copy of something? Who is responsible for calling constructor/destructor.

What do you mean? The compiler will do it for you.

> This should be the exception - rather than the default way to think about structs.

the way that RAII in C++ recursively construct and destroys arbitrary object graphs is extremely powerful. It is something that very few other languages have (Rust, any other?). It should definitely be the default.

> I think we should separate resource allocation from use. Allocators are the things that care about cleanup, move, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by use. If you mean we should separate allocation from construction, I agree! But then so does C++. They are tied by default, but it is easy to separate them if you need it.

monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> What do you mean? The compiler will do it for you.

It will. And the only cost to you is you have to understand initializer lists, pod types, copy constructors, move constructors, launder, trivially_destructible, default initialization, uninitialized_storage, etc.

> the way that RAII in C++ recursively construct and destroys arbitrary object graphs is extremely powerful

And extremely complex.

The big fallacy here is that you would want to manage resources at the individual node level - rather than for a batch.

> I'm not sure what you mean by use

It’s similar to the idea of arenas (also made difficult by constructors btw). You can make sophisticated systems for managing allocations of individual nodes in a graph - like reference counted smart pointers. Or you can avoid the problem entirely by deallocating the whole group at once.

Imagine if C++ structs were required to be pod and classes were not. Then you could always know that a struct can be trivially allocated/deallocated etc.

Then you could design data structures for pod types only that didn’t have to worry about O(n) cleanup and init.

bluGill [3 hidden]5 mins ago
There is often value in putting a class in a struct. Your proposed rule of struct is POD means there will be many less structs, and force people to think about POD or not when the vast majority of the time that doesn't matter to them.
monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> There is often value in putting a class in a struct.

And what’s the cost?

Note that a reference to a class is still POD. It just doesn’t have ownership.

Also I’m not making a specific policy proposal. Im identifying constructors and destructors as the source of complexity. What should we do about it?

> and force people to think about POD or not

No such thing as feature you don’t have to understand. The reason this article exists is that C++ programmers must deal with complex initialization behavior.

Can a C++ programmer not understand move semantics? Or copy constructors?

kazinator [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> This rule makes sense when you think about it

No, it is bonkers; stick to your consistent point, please.

These two should have exactly the same effect:

  bar() = default;       // inside class declaration

  bar::bar() = default;  // outside class declaration
The only difference between them should be analogous to the difference between an inline and non-inline function.

For instance, it might be that the latter one is slower than the former, because the compiler doesn't know from the class declaration that the default constructor is actually not user-defined but default. How it would work is that a non-inline definition is emitted, which dutifully performs the initialization, and that definition is actually called.

That's what non-bonkers might look like, in any case.

I.e. both examples are rewritten by the compiler into

  bar() { __default_init; }

  bar::bar() { __default_init; }
where __default_init is a fictitious place holder for the implementation's code generation strategy for doing that default initialization. It would behave the same way, other than being inlined in the one case and not in the other.

Another way that it could be non-bonkers is if default were simply not allowed outside of the class declaration.

  bar::bar() default;  // error, too late; class declared already!
Something that has no hope of working right and is easily detectable by syntax alone should be diagnosed. If default only works right when it is present at class declaration time, then ban it elsewhere.
bluGill [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This is obsolete and wrong! Variables are now - well as of C++26 which is next year - required to be initialized in C++. C++ is not standing still, it is getting better (well mostly better). You can do stupid things in C++, but I've seen stupid things in every non-toy language (and even most toys)
markhahn [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Most of that actually just makes sense if you approach it from the historic,low-level, minimalist direction. But maybe if you're coming from some other, higher-comfort language...
frollogaston [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Coming from C, none of this made sense to me. Wut is `foo() = default;`? If you want a default value of 0, why isn't it just

  struct foo {
    int a = 0;
  };
In Python, which is higher-level ofc, I still have to do `foo = 0`, nice and clear.
Maxatar [3 hidden]5 mins ago
`foo() = default;` is an explicit way to generate a default constructor for `foo`. The default constructor works by recursively calling the default constructors for all class instance fields. In C++ there are a bunch of rules about when a class has a default constructor or not, but by explicitly declaring one you are guaranteed to have it so long as all your class instance fields have default constructors.

Your example of having a field called `a` that is initialized to 0 is perfectly valid C++ as well but it's not the same as an explicitly declared default constructor.

motorest [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Coming from C, none of this made sense to me. Wut is `foo() = default;`?

C does not have member functions, let alone special member functions such as constructors. It's understandable that someone with a C background who never had any experience using a language besides C would struggle with this sort of info.

C++ improved upon C's developer experience by introducing the concept of special member functions. These are functions which the compiler conveniently generates for you when you write a simple class. This covers constructors (copy constructors and move constructors too). This is extremely convenient and eliminates the need for a ton of boilerplate code.

C++ is also smart enough to know when not to write something it might surprise you. Thus, if you add anything to a basic class that would violate assumptions on how to generate default implementations for any of these special member functions, C++ simply backs off and doesn't define them.

Now, just because you prevented C++ from automatically defining your constructors, that does not mean you don't want them without having to add your boilerplate code. Thus, C++ allows developers to define these special member functions using default implementations. That's what the default keyword is used for.

Now, to me this sort of complaining just sounds like nitpicking. The whole purpose of special member functions and default implementations is to help developers avoid writing boilerplate code to have basic implementations of member functions you probably need anyway. For basic, predictable cases, C++ steps in and helps you out. If you prevent C++ from stepping in, it won't. Is this hard to understand?

More baffling, you do not have to deal with these scenarios if you just declare and define the special member functions you actually want. This was exactly how this feature was designed to work. Is this too hard to follow or understand?

I think the problem with C++ is that some people who are clearly talking out of ignorance feel the need to fabricate arguments about problems you will experience if you a) don't know what you are doing at all and aren't even interested in learning, b) you want to go way out of your way to nitpick about a tool you don't even use. Here we are, complaining about a keyword. If we go through the comments, most of the people doing the bulk of the whining don't even know what it means or how it's used. They seem to be invested in complaining about things they never learned about. Wild.

zabzonk [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> If you want a default value of 0, why isn't it ...

It is.

frollogaston [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I know that works too, but there are also other unclear ways to do it.
codr7 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I agree in the example given.

But add templates to the mix and a generic default becomes quite useful.

112233 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
how does

    int x = x;
has ever made sense? In hostoric minimalist direction?

(and if you have to ask, x is initialized — with the uninitialized value of x)

e-dant [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Let the language die, hope it goes quicker than cobol.
trealira [3 hidden]5 mins ago
C++ is not going anywhere. It's even still used in gamedev to make new games. It's used in HPC and scientific computing. Windows applications often use it. And so on.
jandrewrogers [3 hidden]5 mins ago
For better or worse, modern C++ is still the most capable and expressive systems language. To replace it, we need (at a minimum) a language with similar capability and expressiveness in the low-level systems domain. The options are really thin; Zig probably comes the closest but it is a bit austere coming from recent C++ versions.

I think we can do significantly better than C++ as a systems language. We just haven’t landed on a language that really nails the design.

johnnyjeans [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> For better or worse, modern C++ is still the most capable and expressive systems language.

Not really. Rust, ATS, D, and some implementations of Lisp and even Haskell if you slay the dragon of actually learning GHC. Modern C++ is honestly overrated in my opinion as an extensive user of the language with 300k lines in a modern dialect alone. It's a pain in the ass to step through in a visual debugger and core dumps may as well be useless no matter the platform. It's extremely grating to read and to write. Compilers have a tendency to crash like crazy if you get too cute. There's still no compile-time (or runtime) reflection. I would literally rather be writing proofs for a dependent type system than deal with heavy template metaprogramming.

compiler-guy [3 hidden]5 mins ago
https://www.phoronix.com/news/GCC-15-Merges-COBOL

COBOL Language Frontend Merged For GCC 15 Compiler Written by Michael Larabel in GNU on 11 March 2025 at 06:22 AM EDT. 33 Comments

pjmlp [3 hidden]5 mins ago
First someone needs to rewrite famous open source compiler development tools like GCC and LLVM into something else.
greesil [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I don't think it's going anywhere, too much existing code that's still useful. People STILL use Fortran 77 for goodness sake.
lblume [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Fortran may still be used but is considered functionally dead nonetheless. Nobody is hiring Fortran devs anymore (and those who do put themselves in a really hard market position). Yet, learning C++ might still be a more valuable skill than learning Rust.
pjmlp [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Yet, Fortran 2023 is the latest standard, and Fortran support is one of the reasons why CUDA won over OpenCL.
kergonath [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Fortran 77 is dead. Fortran is not, and yes, people still get hired to use it. Just maybe not in your field.
bdangubic [3 hidden]5 mins ago
“quicker than cobol” means it will die in the next 100 years (maybe) :)
indigoabstract [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I think this saying applies here pretty well: Horses don't die when the dogs want them to.
gosub100 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
COBOL is alive and well. Why would a company rewrite a codebase that has decades of error free functionality? What do they get?
cheema33 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Why would a company rewrite a codebase that has decades of error free functionality? What do they get?

All well and good if it is something you do not have to modify/maintain on a regular basis. But, if you do, then the ROI on replacing it might be high, depending on how much pain it is to keep maintaining it.

We have an old web app written in asp.net web forms. It mostly works. But we have to maintain it and add functionality to it. And that is where the pain is. We've been doing it for a few years but the amount of pain it is to work on it is quite high. So we are slowly replacing it. One page at a time.

gosub100 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
the insurance companies running COBOL don't care. it's cheaper to pay a cowboy $X00,000/yr to keep the gravy dispenser running than trying to modify it. by definition, this is code that's been in use for decades. Why change it?
jimbob45 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I suspect the committee agrees with you. I think they’ve anticipated a competitor coming to kill C++ for two decades now and see themselves as keeping C++ on life support for those who need it.

It’s shameful that there’s no good successor to C++ outside of C# and Java (and those really aren’t successors). Carbon was the closest we came and Google seems to have preemptively dropped it.

wffurr [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The latest Carbon newsletter is here, from March: https://github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang/discussions/5...
compiler-guy [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Carbon is still quite active.
jimbob45 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The addition of a safety design is a shift in our milestones for v0.1, and you can see the difference here. Both of these are fundamental parts of v0.1, and will take long enough that the earliest date for v0.1 is pushed out to the end of 2026

Look, no one is more excited than me for this, but this is reaching Star Citizen levels of delays.

nyarlathotep_ [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Aside, but the author of this blog is the author of https://nostarch.com/building-a-debugger

A wonderful exploration of an underexplored topic--I've pre-ordered the hard copy and have been following along with the e-book in the interim.

dschuetz [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Are AI chatbots aware of this?
beached_whale [3 hidden]5 mins ago
And for the most part it does what you expect.
waynecochran [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This idea that everything must be initialized (i.e. no undefined or non-deterministic behavior) should never be forced upon a language like C++ which rightly assumes the programmer should have the final say. I don't want training wheels put on C++ -- I want C++ do exactly and only what the programmer specifies and no more. If the programmer wants to have uninitialized memory -- that is her business.
Maxatar [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It's so ironic hearing a comment like this. If what you really want is for C++ to do only what you strictly specified, then you'd always release your software with all optimizations disabled.

But I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you don't do that. You actually do allow the C++ compiler to make assumptions that are not explicitly in your code, like reorder instructions, hoist invariants, eliminate redundant loads and stores, vectorize loops, inline functions, etc...

All of these things I listed are based on the compiler not doing strictly what you specified but rather reinterpreting the source code in service of speed... but when it comes to the compiler reinterpreting the source code in service of safety.... oh no... that's not allowed, those are training wheels that real programmers don't want...

Here's the deal... if you want uninitialized variables, then explicitly have a way to declare a variable to be uninitialized, like:

    int x = void;
This way for the very very rare cases where it makes a performance difference, you can explicitly specify that you want this behavior... and for the overwhelming majority of cases where it makes no performance impact, we get the safe and well specified behavior.
sixthDot [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> int x = void;

this is what the D programming language does. Every var declaration has a well know value, unless it is initialized with void. This is nice, optimizing compilers are able to drop useless assignments anyway.

trealira [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Nah, they'd never add new syntax like that, given it's inconsistent with the rest of C++.

If they added an explicit uninitialized value representation to the language, I bet it would look something like this:

  int x {std::uninitialized<int>::value};
tlb [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That's about the right level of ceremony to request an uninitialized variable.
gpderetta [3 hidden]5 mins ago
C++ hasn't done it this way for nullptr or nullopt, why would it do it for an explicit uninitialized?
trealira [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I guess nullptr was put in there because because because "#define NULL 0" had some bad consequences for C++ and they needed a replacement.

std::nullopt doesn't seem so different to what I was talking about; I guess it's just less verbose. When I wrote that, I was thinking of things like "std::is_same<T1, T2>::value" being there.

waynecochran [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The whole advantage of UB is that this places less restraints on what the optimizer can do. If I say something does not need to be initialized I am giving the optimizer the freedom to do more!
TheBicPen [3 hidden]5 mins ago
So what's the issue with introducing explicit syntax to do exactly that if you want to? A safe default does not preclude you from opting out of safety with a bit of syntax or perhaps a compiler flag.
monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The issue is that the language was already designed with the old behavior.
monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> It's so ironic hearing a comment like this. If what you really want is for C++ to do only what you strictly specified, then you'd always release your software with all optimizations disabled

The whole idea of optimizations is producing code that’s equivalent to the naiive version you wrote. There is no inconsistency here.

RUnconcerned [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Optimizations are not "exactly and only what the programmer specifies and no more". They actually fall into the "more" category, believe it or not.
monkeyelite [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Show me some O2 optimizations that will act contrary to code I wrote - meaning they violate the “as if” rule.
frollogaston [3 hidden]5 mins ago
How about int x = 0 if you want 0. Just `int x;` doesn't make it clear that you want 0.
kstrauser [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Safe defaults matter. If you're using x to index into a array, and it's randomly initialized as +-2,000,000,000 because that's what happened to be in that RAM location when the program launched, and you use it before explicitly setting it, you're gonna have a bad time.

And if you used it with a default value of 0, you're going to end up operating on the 0th item in the array. That's probably a bug and it may even be a crasher if the array has length 0 and you end up corrupting something important, but the odds of it being disastrous are much lower.

yxhuvud [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The discussion about what should be the default behavior and of what should be the opt-in behavior is very different from what should be possible. It is definitely clear that in c++, it must be possible to not initialize variables.

Would it really be that unreasonable to have initialisation be opt-out instead of opt-in? You'd still have just as much control, but it would be harder to shoot yourself in the foot by mistake. Instead it would be slightly more easy to get programs that can be optimised.

frollogaston [3 hidden]5 mins ago
C++ is supposed to be an extension of C, so I wouldn't expect things to be initialized by default, even though personally I'm using C++ for things where it'd be nice.

I'm more annoyed that C++ has some way to default-zero-init but it's so confusing that you can accidentally do it wrong. There should be only one very clear way to do this, like you have to put "= 0" if you want an int member to init to 0. If you're still concerned about safety, enable warnings for uninitialized members.

dwattttt [3 hidden]5 mins ago
C++ is supposed to be an extension of <thing with bad default>, so I wouldn't expect <a good default>.

Things can change & grow, that's why we make new standards in the first place.

gpderetta [3 hidden]5 mins ago
my_type my_var = {}; almost always does the right thing.

The almost is unfortunate.

loeg [3 hidden]5 mins ago
As someone who has to work in C++ day in and day out: please, give me the fucking training wheels. I don't want UB if I declare an object `A a;` instead of `A a{};`. At least make it a compiler error I can enable!
bregma [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Can you identify a compiler released in the last, say, 20 years that does not give a warning (or error, if the compiler is instructed to turn warnings into errors) for uninitialized variables when warnings are enabled?
ryandrake [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Ideally, there would be a keyword for it. So ‘A a;’ would not compile. You’d need to do ‘A a{};’ or something like ‘noinit A a;’ to tell the compiler you’re sure you know what you are doing!
waynecochran [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Not me. I want to give the optimizer the freedom to do its thing. If I say something does not need to be initialized, then the optimizer has one less constraint to worry about.
wiseowise [3 hidden]5 mins ago
We’ve already understood you don’t want sane language design, you don’t need to repeat it ten times.
90s_dev [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That's the inherent tension, though, isn't it?

A programmer wants the compiler to accept code that looks like a stupid mistake when he knows it's not.

But he also wants to have the compiler make sure he isn't making stupid mistakes by accident.

How can it do both? They're at odds.

wiseowise [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> How can it do both? They're at odds.

By doing what’s right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishmen...

90s_dev [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Appealing to intuition doesn't work. The way DHH thinks is the complete opposite of people like me who love TypeScript but could never make heads or tails of Rails.
kstrauser [3 hidden]5 mins ago
By that logic, you'd have to dislike the situations where C++ does already initialize variables to defined values, like `int i;`, because they're removing your control and forcing training wheels upon you.

So, do you?

jcelerier [3 hidden]5 mins ago

    int i;
does not initialize the value.
kstrauser [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It's a gotcha to be sure. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. From a reference[0]:

  #include <string>
  
  struct T1 { int mem; };
  
  struct T2
  {
      int mem;
      T2() {} // “mem” is not in the initializer list
  };
  
  int n; // static non-class, a two-phase initialization is done:
  // 1) zero-initialization initializes n to zero
  // 2) default-initialization does nothing, leaving n being zero
  
  int main()
  {
      [[maybe_unused]]
      int n;            // non-class, the value is indeterminate
      std::string s;    // class, calls default constructor, the value is ""
      std::string a[2]; // array, default-initializes the elements, the value is {"", ""}
      //  int& r;           // Error: a reference
      //  const int n;      // Error: a const non-class
      //  const T1 t1;      // Error: const class with implicit default constructor
      [[maybe_unused]]
      T1 t1;            // class, calls implicit default constructor
      const T2 t2;      // const class, calls the user-provided default constructor
      // t2.mem is default-initialized
  }
That `int n;` on the 11th line is initialized to 0 per standard. `int n;` on line 18, inside a function, is not. And `struct T1 { int mem; };` on line 3 will have `mem` initialized to 0 if `T1` is instantiated like `T1 t1{};`, but not if it's instantiated like `T1 t1;`. There's no way to tell from looking at `struct T1{...}` how the members will be initialized without knowing how they'll be called.

C++ is fun!

[0]https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/default_initializ...

90s_dev [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Stroustrup once said

> "There's a great language somewhere deep inside of C++"

or something to that effect.

portaltonowhere [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Unless `i` is global…
waynecochran [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Most cases, e.g. local var declaration. `int i` does not initialize i.
charlotte-fyi [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The entire problem is that what the programmer wants to do and what the program actually does isn't always clear to the programmer.
GrantMoyer [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The problem is that the initialization semantics are so complex in C++ that almost no programmer is actually empowered to exercise their final say, and no programmer without significant effort.

And that's not just said out of unfamiliarity. I'm a professional C++ developer, and I often find I'm more familiar with C++'s more arcane semantics than many of my professional C++ developer co-workers.

marsten [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Unfortunately C++ ended up with a set of defaults (i.e., the most ergonomic ways of doing things) that are almost always the least safe. During most of C++'s development, performance was king and so safety became opt-in.

Many of these can't be blamed on C holdover. For example Vector.at(i) versus Vector[i] – most people default to the latter and don't think twice about the safety implications. The irony is that most of the time when people use std::vector, performance is irrelevant and they'd be much better off with a safe default.

Alas, we made our bed and now we have to lie in it.

anon-3988 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
If they want the program to do exactly what is told they won't get to have optimization.
dminik [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It doesn't really seem worth it. https://web.ist.utl.pt/nuno.lopes/pubs/ub-pldi25.pdf

> The results show that, in the cases we evaluated, the performance gains from exploiting UB are minimal. Furthermore, in the cases where performance regresses, it can often be recovered by either small to moderate changes to the compiler or by using link-time optimizations.

waynecochran [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That's the whole point of UB -- it leaves open more possibilities for optimization. If everything is nailed down, then the options are more restricted.
titzer [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> I want C++ do exactly and only what the programmer specifies and no more.

Most programmers aren't that good and you're mostly running other people's code. Bad defaults that lead to exploitable security bugs is...bad defaults. If you want something to be uninitialized because you know it then you should be forced to scream it at the compiler.

vjvjvjvjghv [3 hidden]5 mins ago
The dev should have the option to turn it off but I think that removing a lot of undefined and non deterministic behavior would be a good thing. When I did C++ I initialized everything and when there was a bug it could usually be reproduced. There are a few cases where it makes sense performance wise to not initialize but those cases are very small compared to most other code where undefined behavior causes a ton of intermittent bugs.
tonyhart7 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
"If the programmer wants to have uninitialized memory -- that is her business."

idk, seems like years of academic effort and research wasted if we do the way C++ do it

adityamwagh [3 hidden]5 mins ago
jandrewrogers [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I largely prefer modern C++ as systems languages go but there is no getting around the fact that the initialization story in C++ is a hot mess. Fortunately, it mostly does what you need it to even if you don't understand it.
vjvjvjvjghv [3 hidden]5 mins ago
And sometimes it doesn’t do what you think it does.
alexvitkov [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This is not even worth thinking about, just type " = {}" on every struct/class member and every variable declaration, and forget about all this nonsense.
dataflow [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That's a bad idea. It defeats tools (warnings, sanitizers, etc.) that try to tell you you have forgotten to place the semantically correct value in your variables.

If you want indiscriminate initialization, a compiler flag is the way, not forcing it in the source code.

timewizard [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Explicitly initialize your variables, and if you ever fall in to the trap of thinking C++ is a sane language, remember this

It's a systems language. Systems are not sane. They are dominated by nuance. In any case the language gives you a choice in what you pay for. It's nice to be able to allocate something like a copy or network buffer without having to pay for initialization that I don't need.

creata [3 hidden]5 mins ago
C and Rust both tend to be more sane than C++, though, so you can't just pin it on C++ being a systems programming language.
pjmlp [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Agree with Rust, with C, only when people think they know C, but never opened a page of ISO C, or spent afternoons reading compiler manuals about language extensions and implementation specific behaviors.
vacuity [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I think in this case it's not amiss to mention Rust. Rust gives a compile error if it's not certain a variable is initialized. Option is the standard dynamic representation of this, and works nicely in the context of all Rust code. MaybeUninint is the `unsafe` variant that is offered for performance-critical situations.
wffurr [3 hidden]5 mins ago
>> Systems are not sane.

“The systems programmer has seen the terrors of the world and understood the intrinsic horror of existence.”

https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1311_05-08_mickens.pdf

gosub100 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
That may have made sense in the days of < 100 MHz CPUs but today I wish they would amend the standard to reduce UB by default and only add risky optimizations with specific flags, after the programmer has analyzed them for each file.
bluGill [3 hidden]5 mins ago
They are doing what you want. It is a long difficult process to figure out what is UB - most of it is cases where there is nothing written down and so it UB by default - it wasn't defined. Once UB is found and documented then they get to figure out what to be done about it. In some cases nothing as realistically nobody does that, in the case in question they have defined what happens, but the article is 8 years old.
jcelerier [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> That may have made sense in the days of < 100 MHz CPUs

you don't know how much C++ code is being written for 100-200MHz CPUs everyday

https://github.com/search?q=esp8266+language%3AC%2B%2B&type=...

I have a codebase that is right now C++23 and soon I hope C++26 targeting from Teensy 3.2 (72 MHz) to ESP32 (240 MHz). Let me tell you, I'm fighting for microseconds every time I work with this.

vjvjvjvjghv [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I bet even there you have only a few spots where it really makes a difference. It’s good to have the option but I think the default behavior should be safer.
jcelerier [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I don't know, way too often often my perf traces are evenly distributed across a few hundred functions (at best), without any clear outlier.
gosub100 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
"how much code" =/= how many developers.

the people who care about clock ticks should be the ones inconvenienced, not ordinary joes who are maintaining a FOSS package that is ultimately stuck by a 0-day. It still takes a swiss-cheese lineup to get there, for sure. but one of the holes in the cheese is C++'s default behavior, trying to optimize like it's 1994.

jcelerier [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> the people who care about clock ticks

I mean that's pretty much the main reason for using c++ isn't it? Video games, real-time media processing, CPU ai inference, network middleware, embedded, desktop apps where you don't want startup time to take more than a few milliseconds...

PaulDavisThe1st [3 hidden]5 mins ago
it's not about startup time. it's about computational bandwidth and latency once running.
gosub100 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
No, it's not a dichotomy of having uninitialized data and fast startup or wait several milliseconds for a jvm or interpreter to load a gigabyte of heap allocated crap.
timewizard [3 hidden]5 mins ago
CPU speed is not memory bandwidth. Latency and contention always exist. Long lived processes are not always the norm.

In another era we would have just called this optimal. https://x.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1922100771392520710

jeffbee [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It's fun to cross the streams of HN catnip.

C++ sucks, it's too hard to use, the compiler should generate stores all over the place to preemptively initialize everything!

Software is too bloated, if we optimized more we could use old hardware!

Maxatar [3 hidden]5 mins ago
I'm not familiar with programming languages that generate redundant stores in order to initialize anything.

Usually what happens is the language requires you to initialize the variable before it's read for the first time, but this doesn't have to be at the point of declaration. Like in Java you can declare a variable, do other stuff, and then initialize it later... so long as you initialize it before reading from it.

Note that in C++, reading from a variable before writing to it is undefined behavior, so it's not particularly clear what benefit you're getting from this.

josefx [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Note that in C++, reading from a variable before writing to it is undefined behavior, so it's not particularly clear what benefit you're getting from this.

The compiler cannot always tell if a variable will be written to before it is accessed. if you have a 100kb network buffer and you call int read = opaque_read(buffer); the compiler cannot tell how much or if anything at all was written to buffer and how size relates to it, it would be forced to initialize every byte in it to zero. A programmer can read the API docs, see that only the first read bytes are valid and use the buffer without ever touching anything uninitialized. Now add in that you can pass mutable pointers and references to nearly anything in C++ and the compiler has a much harder time to tell if it has to initialize arguments passed to functions or if the function is doing the initialization for it.

jorhannn [3 hidden]5 mins ago
>Note that in C++, reading from a variable before writing to it is undefined behavior

They are finally fixing that in C++26 where it's no longer undefined behavior, it's "erroneous behavior" which will require a diagnostic and it has to have some value and compilers aren't allowed to break your code anymore.

tialaramex [3 hidden]5 mins ago
But the price for that is indeed those "redundant stores" which it appears today C++ programmers are convinced explain the slowdown.

I mean sure, the real cause is more likely their incompetent use of the wrong algorithms and data structures or the fact that it's too hard to rely on external dependencies so they're still using a stdlib feature that's known to be significantly slower than the best efforts but eh, it's just a single #include away.

zahlman [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> Note that in C++, reading from a variable before writing to it is undefined behavior, so it's not particularly clear what benefit you're getting from this.

You gain the benefit that the compiler can assume the code path in question is impossible to reach, even if there's an obvious way to reach it. To my understanding, this can theoretically back-propagate all the way to `main()` and make the entire program a no-op.